Power factor and domestic electricity billing in the UK?

Post by Uncle Peter
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (<5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-17 13:46:26 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

--
Is a castrated pig disgruntled?

Daniel

2014-04-18 11:48:36 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-18 12:45:21 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

--
A patient tells the Doctor, "I've been going to a faith healer, but wasn't getting any better."
The Doctor smiled and said, "And what dumb advice did this phony give you?"
"He told me to come see you." replied the new patient.

Daniel

2014-04-20 11:17:45 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-20 19:03:58 UTC

Post by Daniel
When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

Post by Daniel
To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply, presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

Post by Daniel
Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.
And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

Post by Daniel
Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

--
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. -- Carl Sagan

c***@yahoo.com

2014-04-20 21:12:27 UTC

Post by Uncle Peter
--
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on
evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. -- Carl Sagan

Look! There are no real mathematicians working on that! -- Carl Sagan,
refering to meta-logics (i.e. Goedel's incompleteness theorems).

TBA indeed

Daniel

2014-04-21 11:22:39 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-21 18:26:59 UTC

Post by Daniel
Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed you were telling me.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the supply is not fully loaded.

How about ten 850W power supplies?

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.
--
English > German
Indicators ---- Die Blinkenleiten Tickentocken
Bonnet ---- Pullnob und Knucklechopper
Exhaust ---- Die Spitzenpoppenbangentuben
Speedometer ---- Der Egobooster und Linenshooter
Clutch ---- Die Kuplink mit schlippen und shaken
Puncture ---- Die Phlatt mit Bludyfucken
Learner Driver ---- Die Twatten mit Elplatz
Estate Car ---- Der Bagmooroomfurshagginauto
Parking Meter ---- Der Tennerpinscher und Klockenwerr
Windscreen Wiper ---- Der Flippenflappenmuckenschpredder
Footbrake ---- Der Edbangeronvindschreen Stoppend
Gear Lever ---- Biggen Sticken fur Kangaroochoppen
Breathalyser ---- Die Pu titintem fur Pistenarsen
Seat Belt ---- Der Klunkenklikker Frauleintrapper
Headlights ---- Das Dippendontdazzleyubastad
Exhaust Fumes ---- Der Koffenundschpittpoluter
Highway Code ---- Der Wipan fur Arsen
Fog Warning ---- Die Puttenlegdownen und Fukkit
Traffic Jam ---- Die Bluddifukkink Dammundblast
Rear Seat ---- Der Schpringentester
Backfire ---- Der Lowdenbangenmekkenjumpen
Articulated Lorry ---- Der Fukkengrett Trukken
Accident ---- Der Bleedinmess
Near Accident ---- Der Fukken Near Schittsenselfen
Service Station ---- Der Heiway Robberungen
Cyclist ---- Der Pedallpushink Pilloken
Double White lines ---- Overtakenund Krunchen

Daniel

2014-04-22 10:00:36 UTC

Post by Daniel
Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-22 21:01:57 UTC

Post by Daniel
What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

How about ten 850W power supplies?

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

--
What's a diaphragm?
A trampoline for dickheads.

Daniel

2014-04-23 12:20:40 UTC

Post by Daniel
What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

How about ten 850W power supplies?

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Do you switch on lights at night?? That'll effect the mains supply current.
Do you have a refrigerator that turns on and off?? That'll effect the
mains supply current.
How about a heater/electric blanket, etc., etc., etc.

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Uncle Peter

2014-04-23 18:06:59 UTC

Post by Daniel
But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

Post by Daniel
I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

No it isn't, I mean these ones: Loading Image...

Post by Daniel
10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Nothing like the kW used by those PSUs.

Post by Daniel
What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

--
My childbirth instructor says it's not pain I'll feel during labour, but pressure. Is she right?
Yes, in the same way that a tornado might be called an air current.

Daniel

2014-04-24 12:59:28 UTC

Post by Daniel
But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

Post by Daniel
I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/2179/2184-1/Capacitor_X2_358.jpg

Sorry, my mistake.

<Snip>

Post by Uncle Peter
Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-24 13:13:25 UTC

Post by Daniel
What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

<snip>

Post by Daniel
No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/2179/2184-1/Capacitor_X2_358.jpg

Sorry, my mistake.

<snip>

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

<snip>

Post by Daniel
Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

--
Today's woman puts on wigs, fake eyelashes, false fingernails, sixteen pounds of assorted make-up/shadows/blushes/creams, living bras, various pads that would make a linebacker envious, has implants and assorted other surgeries, then complains that she cannot find a "real" man.

Daniel

2014-04-25 10:01:28 UTC

Post by Uncle Peter
<snip>

Post by Daniel
Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-04-25 13:27:35 UTC

Post by Uncle Peter
<snip>

<snip>

Post by Daniel
So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!

Without the sauna. If you read up on it it's very good for you. It increases your immune system, it makes you feel full of energy for the next few days, and it burns off a shitload of calories. I sit in it while watching telly.

--
I used to not get along with my mother-in-law, but over the last few
months, I've developed quite an attachment for her. It goes over her
head, and a strap comes down under her chin to keep her mouth shut.

Ian Field

2014-05-19 21:06:38 UTC

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel

Post by Daniel
Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

Daniel

2014-05-20 10:31:52 UTC

<Snip>

Post by Uncle Peter
But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators",
I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com
from about the eighties!!)

Daniel

Ian Field

2014-05-20 16:17:38 UTC

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

Post by Uncle Peter
But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators", I
say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com from
about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you would
be tedious and futile.

Daniel

2014-05-21 12:22:35 UTC

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

Post by Uncle Peter
But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle
Peter was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

Sorry if you consider it "tedious and futile".

Daniel

Ian Field

2014-05-21 15:12:40 UTC

On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel

<Snip>

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle Peter
was originally talking about.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

When you start on about phase control in a discussion on SMPSU and PFC,
there aren't many conclusions to be drawn!

Ian Field

2014-05-19 21:03:04 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

Active PFC is basically a flyback boost regulator with no reservoir cap
between it and the bridge rectifier.

With no reservoir cap, there's no blips on the peaks and the switching
pulses current amplitude more or less track the mains cycle amplitude.

There is still a main reservoir cap, but its after the PFC, and usually
rated 450V rather than the more usual 385V or so.

The passive one I saw was nothing more than a bloody great iron cored choke
on the AC in to the bridge rectifier.

Ian Field

2014-05-19 20:53:09 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on point
in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave thyristor
buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

Daniel

2014-05-20 11:10:49 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Post by Ian Field
In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave
thyristor buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-05-20 14:35:43 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.

--
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that want to get ahead, and those that just want to get head.

Ian Field

2014-05-20 16:21:44 UTC

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty PFC
capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Daniel

2014-05-21 12:26:32 UTC

On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.
And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 12:41:31 UTC

Post by Ian Field
Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

--
You know you're getting old when:
Your friends compliment you on your new alligator shoes and you're barefoot.

Ian Field

2014-05-21 15:25:19 UTC

Post by Ian Field
Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

Post by Ian Field
AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 15:33:36 UTC

Post by Uncle Peter
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit something that takes LEDs.

--
A budget is just a method of worrying before you spend money, as well as afterwards.

Ian Field

2014-05-21 19:25:54 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.

While LED bulbs are still at least £9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent
starter?

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 19:42:46 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

au>

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had t=

o add

"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one=
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong=
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing =

and

flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a pro=

blem

waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at le=

ast

the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electron=

ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a cou=

ple

of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fi=

something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog =

- I

only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the ki=

tchen

too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a c=

ouple

of carrier bags.
While LED bulbs are still at least =A39.99 and I'd need 3 to give the =

same

light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

=A315 gives you 150W equivalent. =A310 gives you 100W equivalent. =A33=
gives you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit=

that

I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought=
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.
Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fitt=

ings,

Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W =

- 3 of

those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off =
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LED=
s.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent=
starter?

I can't tell you that as I gave away my 4 spare starters on freecycle, a=
nd for some reason the only remaining ballast fluorescent here (under a =
kitchen wall unit) has no starter I can see. Unless it's hidden on the =
side against the floor of the cupboard, or internal. They do look simil=
ar sockets though.

-- =

I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same god who has give=
n us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use=
, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain throu=
gh them -- Galileo Galilei

Ian Field

2014-05-21 20:51:54 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Daniel
Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!
Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

Post by Ian Field
A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.
While LED bulbs are still at least £9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives
you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

Post by Ian Field
There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.
Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.

Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 21:02:42 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wro=

ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzin=

g and

flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at =

least

the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an=
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electr=

onic

ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a c=

ouple

of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I=
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and =

fit

something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bo=

g - I

only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then=
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a=
couple
of carrier bags.
While LED bulbs are still at least =A39.99 and I'd need 3 to give th=

e same

light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

=A315 gives you 150W equivalent. =A310 gives you 100W equivalent. =A3=

3 gives

you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed un=

that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I boug=

replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.=
Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40=

W - 3

of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone o=

CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD =

LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PC=

inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the wat=

less

dropper type when they have any in.

I'd recommend you go for whatever has more LEDs. The big 1-2W LEDs simp=
ly cannot be cooled well enough.

-- =

The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.

Ian Field

2014-05-21 21:20:36 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Ian Field
The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at
least
the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a
couple
of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives
you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

I'd recommend you go for whatever has more LEDs. The big 1-2W LEDs simply
cannot be cooled well enough.

The 4W one has 4x lens capped LEDs with a molded lens plate that fits over
the lot so you don't get 4 little beams, the 5W variety has 24 simple SMD
LEDs with no lens as such - much better spread of light IWHT.

I estimated that each of the 24 LEDs is dissipating around 200mW, I saw an
ad for very similar looking parts that suggested they might be rated 600mW.

No surprise that many LEDs, closely packed with not a lot in the way of
heatsink would be derated to allow for heat generation.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 21:26:14 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the =

bog -

I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in th=

kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - th=

extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled=

couple
of carrier bags.
While LED bulbs are still at least =A39.99 and I'd need 3 to give =

the

same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

=A315 gives you 150W equivalent. =A310 gives you 100W equivalent. =

=A33 gives

you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed =

unit

that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bo=

ught

replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available no=

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to =

40W -

3
of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone=

off

CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SM=

LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher =

PCB

inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattles=

dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

I'd recommend you go for whatever has more LEDs. The big 1-2W LEDs s=

imply

cannot be cooled well enough.

The 4W one has 4x lens capped LEDs with a molded lens plate that fits =

over

the lot so you don't get 4 little beams,

That sounds like CREE LEDs. The kind I have in GU10 that last about 4-6=
months.

the 5W variety has 24 simple SMD
LEDs with no lens as such - much better spread of light IWHT.

Yes. I like the corn on the cob as the light comes out all round it and=
the end, just like a CFL.

I estimated that each of the 24 LEDs is dissipating around 200mW, I sa=

w an

ad for very similar looking parts that suggested they might be rated 6=

00mW.

No surprise that many LEDs, closely packed with not a lot in the way o=

heatsink would be derated to allow for heat generation.

The corn on the cobs I have have the LEDs (and the solder joints with up=
to 150V DC!) exposed.

-- =

In the Nintendo GameCube instruction manual:
"Do not attempt to stick head inside deck, which may result in injury"

Ian Field

2014-05-22 16:18:31 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 22:20:36 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Ian Field
The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the
bog -
I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives
you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

Post by Ian Field
There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed
unit
that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.
Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W -
3
of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

I'd recommend you go for whatever has more LEDs. The big 1-2W LEDs simply
cannot be cooled well enough.

The 4W one has 4x lens capped LEDs with a molded lens plate that fits over
the lot so you don't get 4 little beams,

That sounds like CREE LEDs. The kind I have in GU10 that last about 4-6
months.

Post by Ian Field
the 5W variety has 24 simple SMD
LEDs with no lens as such - much better spread of light IWHT.

Yes. I like the corn on the cob as the light comes out all round it and
the end, just like a CFL.

They're on a flat disc, not corn cob. Apart from H4 replacements I've only
seen corn cobs advertised in the Indian EFY magazine.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-23 01:19:53 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 22:20:36 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Ian Field
HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

I'd recommend you go for whatever has more LEDs. The big 1-2W LEDs simply
cannot be cooled well enough.

The 4W one has 4x lens capped LEDs with a molded lens plate that fits over
the lot so you don't get 4 little beams,

That sounds like CREE LEDs. The kind I have in GU10 that last about 4-6
months.

Post by Ian Field
the 5W variety has 24 simple SMD
LEDs with no lens as such - much better spread of light IWHT.

Yes. I like the corn on the cob as the light comes out all round it and
the end, just like a CFL.

They're on a flat disc, not corn cob. Apart from H4 replacements I've only
seen corn cobs advertised in the Indian EFY magazine.

Ebay is full of corn cobs. I've got a few in the house now.

--
Peter is listening to Psy - Gangnam style

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 21:03:44 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

The fuckwit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wro=

ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzin=

g and

flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could piss!
I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at =

least

the
light came on eventually without a major drama.
When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an=
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electr=

onic

ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.
When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a c=

ouple

of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I=
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and =

fit

something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bo=

g - I

only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

e same

light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

=A315 gives you 150W equivalent. =A310 gives you 100W equivalent. =A3=

3 gives

you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed un=

that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I boug=

W - 3

of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone o=

CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD =

LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PC=

inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the wat=

less

dropper type when they have any in.

Look on Ebay, there are much cheaper better ones. But buy them from a U=
K seller who is registered in the UK (not just posting from a port in th=
e UK). Otherwise the distance selling regulations won't help you if the=
y fail.

-- =

"Click cancel to discontinue starting" - Mac OS 9

Ian Field

2014-05-22 16:21:44 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives
you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

Look on Ebay, there are much cheaper better ones. But buy them from a UK
seller who is registered in the UK (not just posting from a port in the
UK). Otherwise the distance selling regulations won't help you if they
fail.

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China etc.

Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting any duty.

Its pretty much put me off bothering.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-23 01:19:24 UTC

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the =

bog -

I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in th=

kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - th=

extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled=

couple
of carrier bags.
While LED bulbs are still at least =A39.99 and I'd need 3 to give =

the

same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

=A315 gives you 150W equivalent. =A310 gives you 100W equivalent. =

=A33 gives

you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed =

unit

that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bo=

ught

replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available no=

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to =

40W -

3
of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone=

off

CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SM=

LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher =

PCB

inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattles=

dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

Look on Ebay, there are much cheaper better ones. But buy them from =

a UK

seller who is registered in the UK (not just posting from a port in t=

UK). Otherwise the distance selling regulations won't help you if th=

fail.

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China e=

tc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who have=
imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consumer p=
rotection laws applying.

Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting any=

duty.

Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

-- =

How many potheads does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to hold the bulb against the socket, and the other to smoke up=
until the room starts spinning.

Ian Field

2014-05-23 16:12:48 UTC

On Thu, 22 May 2014 17:21:44 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Ian Field
The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the
bog -
I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a fuck what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives
you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

Post by Ian Field
There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed
unit
that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.
Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W -
3
of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off
CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switcher PCB
inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattless
dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the watless
dropper type when they have any in.

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China etc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who have
imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consumer
protection laws applying.

Post by Ian Field
Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting any duty.
Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Australia.

The duty to be collected was about £4 - that and the Royal Mail 'handling
charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for the kit!

Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or you don't
get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-23 22:58:50 UTC

On Thu, 22 May 2014 17:21:44 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

HB have had 2 types - a 4W with 4 SMD LEDs and a very tiny switche=

r PCB

inside the body, and a 5W one with 24 simpler SMD LEDs and a wattl=

ess

dropper.
Several in an enclosure could be a heat problem, so I'd prefer the=
watless
dropper type when they have any in.

Look on Ebay, there are much cheaper better ones. But buy them fro=

m a

UK
seller who is registered in the UK (not just posting from a port in=

the

UK). Otherwise the distance selling regulations won't help you if =

they

fail.

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China=

etc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who h=

ave

imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consumer=
protection laws applying.

Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting a=

duty.
Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Australia.=
The duty to be collected was about =A34 - that and the Royal Mail 'han=

dling

charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for the=

kit!

Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or you do=

n't

get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

By "duty" I assume you mean import taxes. That shouldn't occur unless t=
he item is over about =A330-=A350. Secondly any decent seller will writ=
e it as "gift" and value "$10".

-- =

Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques.

Ian Field

2014-05-24 17:27:23 UTC

On Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:48 +0100, Ian Field

On Thu, 22 May 2014 17:21:44 +0100, Ian Field

On Wed, 21 May 2014 21:51:54 +0100, Ian Field

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China etc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who have
imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consumer
protection laws applying.

Post by Ian Field
Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting any duty.
Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Australia.
The duty to be collected was about £4 - that and the Royal Mail 'handling
charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for the kit!
Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or you don't
get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

By "duty" I assume you mean import taxes. That shouldn't occur unless the
item is over about £30-£50. Secondly any decent seller will write it as
"gift" and value "$10".

Well Jaycar didn't, and I got mugged by RM.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-24 21:42:10 UTC

On Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:48 +0100, Ian Field

On Thu, 22 May 2014 17:21:44 +0100, Ian Field

Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from Chi=

etc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who=

have

imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consum=

protection laws applying.

Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting=

any

duty.
Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Australi=

The duty to be collected was about =A34 - that and the Royal Mail 'h=

andling

charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for t=

kit!
Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or you =

don't

get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

By "duty" I assume you mean import taxes. That shouldn't occur unles=

s the

item is over about =A330-=A350. Secondly any decent seller will writ=

e it as

"gift" and value "$10".

Well Jaycar didn't, and I got mugged by RM.

It's simple. If you receive something from Ebay with unexpected duty, t=
hen don't pay. It goes back to the seller at their expense.

-- =

Men, here's a tip for dealing with the little lady.
If you upset your wife or girlfriend then she will nag you.
However, if you upset her EVEN MORE, you will get the silent treatment.

Ian Field

2014-05-25 16:33:20 UTC

On Sat, 24 May 2014 18:27:23 +0100, Ian Field

On Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:48 +0100, Ian Field

On Thu, 22 May 2014 17:21:44 +0100, Ian Field

Post by Ian Field
Most of what I've seen on Ebay that I'd want to order, is from China etc.

LED bulbs are plentiful on Ebay. There are loads of UK sellers who have
imported thousands and sell them from this country, with our consumer
protection laws applying.

Post by Ian Field
Royal Mail extorts a racketeering 'handling charge' for collecting
any
duty.
Its pretty much put me off bothering.

What are you talking about?

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Australia.
The duty to be collected was about £4 - that and the Royal Mail 'handling
charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for the kit!
Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or you don't
get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

By "duty" I assume you mean import taxes. That shouldn't occur unless the
item is over about £30-£50. Secondly any decent seller will write it as
"gift" and value "$10".

Well Jaycar didn't, and I got mugged by RM.

It's simple. If you receive something from Ebay with unexpected duty,
then don't pay. It goes back to the seller at their expense.

Most places I order from won't send the goods till after payment clears.

Uncle Peter

2014-05-25 16:56:29 UTC

On Sat, 24 May 2014 18:27:23 +0100, Ian Field

On Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:48 +0100, Ian Field

A few years ago I ordered an electronics kit from Jaycar in Austra=

lia.

The duty to be collected was about =A34 - that and the Royal Mail
'handling
charge' for collecting it came to more than 50% of what I paid for=

the

kit!
Its pretty much blackmail - cough up the extortionate charge or yo=

don't
get your goods - which will eventually be disposed of.

By "duty" I assume you mean import taxes. That shouldn't occur unl=

ess

the
item is over about =A330-=A350. Secondly any decent seller will wr=

ite it as

"gift" and value "$10".

Well Jaycar didn't, and I got mugged by RM.

It's simple. If you receive something from Ebay with unexpected duty=

then don't pay. It goes back to the seller at their expense.

Most places I order from won't send the goods till after payment clear=

s.

Yes, but we were discussing the duty open RECEIPT.

-- =

Reality is for people who can't handle alcohol and joints.

c***@yahoo.com

2014-05-20 20:27:00 UTC

Post by Daniel
Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Post by Daniel
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

Post by Uncle Peter
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Ron

Ian Field

2014-05-20 20:38:38 UTC

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Post by Daniel
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Post by Uncle Peter
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have become
trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the rectifier
tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as power factor
correction.

Daniel

2014-05-21 12:40:41 UTC

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Post by Daniel
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.
In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Daniel

Uncle Peter

2014-05-21 12:43:37 UTC

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Post by Daniel
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.
In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

No it isn't. It's a very good measurement of actual power produced versus heating in the wires. For example I had 5kW of computers with shitty "what you don't call PF", and the extension cable was getting warm at 2/3rds of it's rated load. It only gets that warm at 1.5 times its rated load with heaters.

--
The dot over the letter i is called a tittle.

Ian Field

2014-05-21 15:32:22 UTC

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Post by Daniel
that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.

But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.
In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

Daniel

2014-05-24 02:40:39 UTC

<Snip>

Post by Ian Field
Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.
In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

Does not mean my OPINION is wrong!!

Daniel

Ian Field

2014-05-24 17:29:20 UTC

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

Does not mean my OPINION is wrong!!

Never said it did - but you do seem a bit over keen to post your OPINION
where facts would be more appropriate.

Daniel

2014-05-25 11:59:00 UTC

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

Does not mean my OPINION is wrong!!

Never said it did - but you do seem a bit over keen to post your OPINION
where facts would be more appropriate.

Not a problem, Ian! If you want to learn anything about Power Factor
have a look at....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

Note in the first para, where they talk about "or due to a non-linear
load " they are talking about any circuit the contains a capacitor
and/or an inductor/transformer and/or a transistorised circuit.

I glanced over it .... didn't see anything to go against my " *OPINION*
" .... but I could be wrong!!

Daniel

Daniel

Ian Field

2014-05-25 16:35:09 UTC

Post by Daniel
<Snip>

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

Does not mean my OPINION is wrong!!

Never said it did - but you do seem a bit over keen to post your OPINION
where facts would be more appropriate.

Not a problem, Ian! If you want to learn anything about Power Factor have
a look at....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Note in the first para, where they talk about "or due to a non-linear load
" they are talking about any circuit the contains a capacitor and/or an
inductor/transformer and/or a transistorised circuit.
I glanced over it .... didn't see anything to go against my " *OPINION* "
.... but I could be wrong!!

Till the next time you post your OPINION as fact then.

Sure it won't be long.

c***@yahoo.com

2014-05-27 05:44:46 UTC

Not a problem, Ian! If you want to learn anything about Power Factor have a
look at....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Note in the first para, where they talk about "or due to a non-linear load "
they are talking about any circuit the contains a capacitor and/or an
inductor/transformer and/or a transistorised circuit.
I glanced over it .... didn't see anything to go against my " *OPINION* "
.... but I could be wrong!!

If you read down a bit you see they list capacitors & inductors under
linear loads. Here linear means e=Zi where Z is the impedence & e & i are
the instantaneous voltage & current. Basically, you put a sine wave
voltage in, you get a sine wave current with a possible phase shift out.
Non-linear devices give current that has harmonics or has term like i^2,
i^3 or v^2 etc. or where Z is a function of voltage or current. e.g.
distortion to the sine wave other than a simple phase shift.

Z /can/ depend on frequency but not voltage or current, so its a touch
more messy if the input isn't a sine wave.

For linear loads
(1) pf = real power/apparent power, real power= RMS(e x i),
appearant power = RMS(e) x RMS(i)
and
(2) pf = cos(phi)
are equivalent. For non-linear loads (2) is less usefull so you either
need a new term or you need to generalize from (1) which seems to be what
was done. C'est la vie say the old folks.

Ron

Daniel

2014-05-21 12:38:14 UTC

They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters
for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Yes, your T.V. switches on and stays on for three hours, maybe, before
it's switched off. Meanwhile your 10-15-20 neighbours have also turned
on their T.V.'s and turned them off.

And your Fridge has turned on and, later, off. And your 10-15-20
neighbours' Fridges.

Etc., Etc., Etc..

The waveform on your power lines is a very complex thing!!